Sex With Infants Condoned in Middle East

[Slayden]

An Islamic law called Shari'a condones sex with toddler and infant girls. They they thinly veil their intentions with carefully chosen words but a Muslim woman exposes it. It is also interesting to note how much the Muslim man that is interviewing her keeps trying to quiet her down by saying "No need to get into detail." She thankfully ignores him.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]



And here's a vid where a man is saying that it is the woman's fault if she is raped:

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Islam also dictates that husbands have the right to rape their wives. In fact, Muslims are shocked that it is a crime to do so in the West.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]



Finally, here are links that show where it is all justified in the Koran:

Muhammad's Own Words: Women - [Only registered and activated users can see links]

The Pedophile Pirate - [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Rednal]

And they are generally of the opinion that we have problems. ^^ It's interesting to see how two cultures can each be doing something the other views as awful, and not understand why it is so. Not that I condone raping babies or anything. o.O Loli's in anime is one thing, but in real life... no. >.< Just no.

[chimpzy]

It is for reasons like these that i believe the Islam is in desperate need of it's own equivalent to the Enlightenment. It'll most likely be a very different from the one we had here in the West. But maybe it'll allow Muslims to relativate their faith. To realize that placing blind faith in a centuries old set of laws written under entirely different circumstances might not be the best way to advance themselves in the modern world. To adhere to the spirit of the holy scriptures, rather than the letter. To be able to openly discuss any subject, not a single exception made.
And maybe decide on a general interpretation of said scriptures on which all Muslims can agree, a decision in which everyone can freely participate without needing to answer for it.

After watching the various video's linked to in Slayden's post, I have the following comments:
The Shari's does indeed say it is the wife's duty to obey and satisfy her husband ... but there are passages in the Shari'a saying the husband in turn also has the holy duty to ensure his wife's (sexual) satisfaction (as well as being obligated to support her and any children). Furthermore, the Shari'a also says that a women's body and wordly possessions are her own and that the father, brother or husband has no right to claim them against her will. Failing either of these, is actually grounds for a woman to divorce her husband, which she has the right to (though I doubt it to actually happen in reality)
There is also a law stating that a post-pubescent female cannot be forced to marry anyone without their consent.

It sometimes surprises how the holy books can contain such well thought out metaphors and stories on morality, yet at the same time be full of passages that are open to one thousand different interpretations or just plainly contradict each other.

PS: "[Only registered and activated users can see links]" does not strike me as being very objective. I've seen it label all Muslims as terrorists and then calling this an undeniable fact. I find this questionable.

[Rednal]

Not NEARLY all Muslims are terrorists. And of those that are, many of them are being deluded by lies or else told the truth in a skewed manner to make them think a certain way. In short, it's just a few people who are causing trouble. It's very sad, especially when they do things like taking mentally impaired people and using them as suicide bombers.

[ElderKain]

Some Contries in the east go by the saying
*Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed (As in Periods/Time of the Month)*

Personally I'm a Loli fan, but when it comes to Real Life Pedo stuff, that's just wrong... that jist gives the Loli Art fans a Bad name...

:bingo2: :bingo2: :bingo2: :bingo2: :bingo2:

[Sword]

Leaving the power in a few religious zealots can only promote violence and ignorance which can leave a society back in the dark age, while the world around them advances to the modern era. I do agree that the Islamic world is in need of an Enlightenment. Personally loli in anime is ok, while in real life is just wrong.

[chimpzy]

Some Contries in the east go by the saying
*Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed (As in Periods/Time of the Month)*
From a purely biological point of view that is indeed true, in a way.

And for most of the worlds history boys were considered 'men' at 14 years old and girls old enough to marry and start pumping out babies as soon as they started menstruating.

[Slayden]

Not NEARLY all Muslims are terrorists. And of those that are, many of them are being deluded by lies or else told the truth in a skewed manner to make them think a certain way. In short, it's just a few people who are causing trouble. It's very sad, especially when they do things like taking mentally impaired people and using them as suicide bombers.

While I agree that not nearly all Muslims are terrorists, I disagree that the terrorists are being lied to. It is written in the Qur'an to slay all infidels (non-Muslims) and that war is the path of a true Muslim, "even if it is hateful to you." It depends on how closely they follow their own religion. I just cited the scriptures pertaining to women. Want another source that strictly cites "Allah's words" without a commentary?

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Qur'an 47:035
Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for Allah is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...

Surah 9:5
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the infidels wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

When the Qur'an says, "Slay the infidels wherever you find them, take them as captives, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them," the extremists can point to that and many, many other verses and say: "Look, this is what our religion teaches."

Moderate Muslims have a difficult time explaining away verses that incite violence because Islam teaches that the Qur'an was dictated word for word by Allah. Muslims teach that the Qur'an is the literal words of Allah in a stronger sense than Christianity believes the Bible is the word of God ... the Qur'an is more than inspired, it is dictated. They believe it is actually God speaking. There is no human element.

The moderates who might be fighting against Islam's dark side have the disadvantage of having to go against the plain-worded text in the Qur'an.

PS: "[Only registered and activated users can see links]" does not strike me as being very objective. I've seen it label all Muslims as terrorists and then calling this an undeniable fact. I find this questionable.

Here's what the site owner said about statements exactly like the one you just made:

The critics of this work will claim that Prophet of Doom is offensive, racist,
hatemongering, intolerant, and unnecessarily violent. I agree - but I didn't write
those parts. They came directly from Islam's scriptures. If you don't like what
Muhammad and Allah said, don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

Others will say that I cherry-picked the worst of Islam to render an unfair verdict.
They will charge that I took the Islamic scriptures out of context to smear
Muhammad and Allah. But none of that is true. Over the course of these pages, I
quote from almost every surah in the Qur'an - many are presented in their
entirety. But more than that, I put each verse in the context of Muhammad's life,
quoting vociferously from the Sunnah as recorded by Bukhari, Muslim, Ishaq, and
Tabari - Islam's earliest and more trusted sources. I even arrange all of this
material chronologically, from creation to terror.

As I said before, it depends on how closely Muslims follow their own religion. A Moderate Muslim who discounts whole chunks of the Qur'an and ignores it may be a cool person, but they'd have to be acting pretty much like an atheist under the title of Islam (which is common among all religions) for this to work. There is no "intolerance" or "skewed vision" on my part. The facts speak for themselves; they don't need me to do so for them.

[chimpzy]

As I said before, it depends on how closely Muslims follow their own religion. A Moderate Muslim who discounts whole chunks of the Qur'an and ignores it may be a cool person, but they'd have to be acting pretty much like an atheist under the title of Islam (which is common among all religions) for this to work. There is no "intolerance" or "skewed vision" on my part. The facts speak for themselves; they don't need me to do so for them.
Oh, I never meant to call you intolerant. I simply wished to imply that any commentary coming from that website should be taken with a grain of salt. They're comments, not to be mistaken for truths. But I doubt I need to tell you that. I'm just stringent about such matters, it's my job after all (literally).
But, I should have worded it in a way less open to interpretation (my bad).

In regards to your comments about the adherence of Muslims to religious dogma: that is quite true. My first comments in my original post relate to that, actually. Like I said before, the Islam is in need of an evolution. The Muslims themselves also need a better understanding of their faith as most of them barely know the actual contents of the holy scriptures. Many just accept whatever their Imams tell them as truth.
But, it is sad indeed to see that most of the worlds religions have teachings of violence and even sadder to see people then use this to excuse their cruelty and violence, for whatever purpose it may be (religious fervour or a different agenda).

There mustn't be a lot of Muslims on this forum. Usually questioning their faith or tradition, even slightly, is enough to provoke a torrent of aggravated protest.
Though I can understand that ... from a certain point of view. I'll put things in perspective. To devout Muslims, faith makes up an enormous part of their identity, much more so than even pious Christians. Faith is at the very top of a Muslims list of priorities, closely followed by honor.
Furthermore, everything faith tells them is absolutely true even if absurd. Combine this with all of this being everything you have ever known and constantly being told that this is how things should be, and you get an extremely rigid and inflexible mindset where no questions are asked and no doubt exists.
Now imagine someone whom you view as corrupt and immoral to come into your house, watch over your shoulders and scream "You can't do that, that's wrong!" at the top of his lungs at just about everything you do. Wouldn't anyone get pissed after a while?
This should make it a little easier to understand how zealous Muslims handle (or rather, don't) criticism.

Anime must be Haraam (Arabic term signifying all that is forbidden by God).

[kiziroglu]

Wow.... I was expecting you to come up with something new... Apparently, I'm wrong. same old THEORIES...

I will not let you give false information to people out here..

first of all, I don't care a damn about what those people are talking about in the videos you've just quoted.
Islam, gives everyone allowance to analyse religion, and you come out here telling me that those people are thinking otherwise, I'd tell you to first learn about fundamentals, then start judging what others think.
As a muslim who has quite some knowledge about his religion, I can assure you that all those videos are nothing but a result of misinterpretation. No information, that isn't supported by Qur'an (the holy book) is worth talking about. Qur'an; the true miracle of islam, keeping its original self for 14 hundred years.

Now... Read this well, quoting from anti-islamis web-sited whose translations are a total nonsense, is not very objective...

The one which you refer as Surah(9/9)...
firstly, qur'an is consist of surah s... Writing "surah" there, was enough to show me your level of knowledge on a topic you're trying to disgrace.
So, I took my qur'an into my hand, whicih has both arabic, and turkish text, and knowing some arabic, I can translate it from its original language at certain parts, like mis-translated words you'll see below.

surah title : El-tevbe
Verse : 1
<<
A serious warning from Allah and his Messenger
To the infidels with whom you've made an arrangement.
>>
information : this surah is clearly refering to the colony of Quraishi. Those who have some basic knowledge about Islam, should know who they are. They were the ones who kept muslims captive, tortured them , leaving them without food and water to death, and then started a war on muslims. Because things didn't go as they expected, they wanted to make a peace agreement. Muhammed ( pbuh) accepted the agreement, and this peace period was very useful for new people to be recruited. and many tribes converted to islam. During this period, according to the agreement, muslims who were captured by them were not to be given back. but those who converted to islam, and escape from them, came to muslims would be given back when wanted.

Verse : 2
<<
Spend 4 more months on the earth
Know that you cannot make Allah desperate
Allah will deffinitelly make those infidels suffer
>>

Additional information : Remember that, verses were the way Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah have interacted. By the time this verse arrived, muslims prepared for the war, and like I've said before, in one of my other posts, the only jihad in the history happened.
For those who find the words of Allah as brutal, listen well. This verses are only meant for the war against quraish tribe. and by the time this jihad happened, many of the quraishi population were already willing to convert to islam. Even the leader of quraish converted to islam, before the day of attack. For those verses to be followed, strictly, the same conditions must be provided. Neither in the history or nowadays, because there was/is never such agreement (other than quraish case), you cannot just simple quote from the verse 5, and say that Allah orders muslims to kill others. That'ws ignorance, and misleading people. If anyone has a second thought about the logic behind any of the words in Islam, should look into Qur'an from a non-subjective source.

More information : the verse three goes on like I said. It says "those whom you've had an agreement with" and "those who have done you everything/means everything bad"
And the verses after 5 also prove my words... If you doubt, read it...


surah title : El-tevbe
Verse : 35
<<
Allah will never forgive those who turned their backs to Allah, those who dies as an infidel, Allah won't forgive any of them.
Don't act loosely, neither ask them for sulh(sulh, in arabic, when used as Peace, indicates silence.), when you have the upperhand.
Allah is with you, and will not decrease the amount of your good deeds (clearly, states that those who don't wish to spend their time trying to get other people convert to islam, are welcome as well)
>>

And the part about treating women... Listen well...
Hadith are always a bad source to refer to, since they were not edit-free like verses, and got evolved from person to person within this huge period of time.
But, in one of your videos , some guy referred to the surah of "Nisa".
This is also an issue where lots of misinterpretation occurs.
The verse clearly states...

here is he misinterpretated part from the verse number 34
<<
If those women (refers to our wives) make your family-life impossible to live,
advice them
seperate your beds with them
and if they can't find the true way, darb(is a verb, I'll describe what it means) them
>>
darb : is force, and it has several uses.

the one, which is used in this context , is "leave" them, and emotionally shock them.

so, some people come out and say that when his wife doesn't sleep with him, he can force her into having sex. Does it say so ? Are the conditions provided ? No! And even if the conditions provided, it doesn't tell you to force her into having sex, it tells you to divorce her.

As for the one, where you were saying that islam allows having sex with young girls, I remember that the verse clearly said that "when their breasts got mature/became like a mature's", which is when the girl turns into an adult. Like I said, In my country the avarage age when girls can get married is 16, which is the end of their blue-age. I see no contradiction , do you ?

I find thread post verry irritating, and full of false information. Those who had a slight degree of change in their minds, by being mis-lead by all those nonsense, can read the Qur'an by themselves, and learn the truth. Qur'an is a great source, and to be able to talk about it, you should at least have a basic level of understanding about islam, which is only 1 page of reading.

Next time, find stronger proof to support your claims. Good days, brother. PEace be with you.

[kiziroglu]

and chimpzy , altough I agree with you at some points, There's one comment I want to make on your post.
I don't think muslims need to evolve, and bring something new. All htey need to do is, find the true islam, which was lived in the day of Muhammed (pbuh). I think that those 1400 years changed not the qur'an, and the information in it(although I might have some doubts, I didn't face with any contradiction with general logic, so far), what those years have changed is the understanding of islam. When wahabis come out and say that they're bringing islam back to the day it was born, what they did was actually interpreting islam according to their wishes, which were to provoke all the muslims against all non-muslims. All of other movements like wahabis' just chaged people way of understanding islam, and now we have all those questionings about the reliance of knowledge, which is a simple result of not having the same islam we had in 7th century.

[pretmaker]

Dont bother Kiziroglu... The world itself is not ready until they will finally see the darkness that they create. After the darkness comes light and until that time the majority of people is not ready to be lectured by anyone.

Stand alone to be put back on the earth by a thing they hate most becaus of propaganda. Oh well... I still like you though :P
Even while I am orriginally RK (Cathaholic if I am right :P, or is it alcoholic :P)

Oh well... not that I believe in anything anymore... But that is something that I must deal with. According to all those believe's I will have a hard time later on. :)

But Kiziroglu... People only see a few things. They never see the whole picture. Just like they do not want to acknowledge that girls of the age of 9 are not a virgin anymore in the USA... Those stories do not reach the USA itself but it does reach the other countries... Not that I find it offencive... It is their problem and not mine :)

[chimpzy]

Finding the true Islam is going to be hard i'm afraid. There is no consensus about the correct interpretation of the holy books and to be honest, no one really knows how Muslims lived when Muhammed was still alive.

Unfortunately, the Qu'ran and other texts were never written down during Muhammed's life as he died very suddenly and up until then they only existed as a verbal tradition memorized by his followers. It wasn't until several years after his death that they were put on paper.
The texts themselves are barely readable, let alone interpretable.

Yes, the Qu'ran didn't change change much in the last 14 centuries, but what of the time when it was in limbo, trapped in the flawed minds of men. Men who were at the time busy fighting for the right to name themselves Muhammed successor.
How much did Muhammed never get the chance to deliver unto his followers? How much have they forgotten after his death?

[Slayden]

Look I'm going to make this quick so I'm not going to address every single part of your post like I can. A lot of this post is going to be me just copying and pasting verses from this site: [Only registered and activated users can see links] which is a website that promotes Isam and offers the book online to anyone who wants to read it.

The Qur’ān (Arabic: القرآن ‎ al-qur'ān, literally "the recitation") is full of violent passages. Muhammad claims that every word he spoke was mechanical dictation from Allah, yet there are conflicting passages. In the very beginning, Islam started out peaceful when he was at Mecca, but after Muhammad went to Medina, he changed his tune to a far more violent one. Curious that Allah would change his message to the world based on the current mood of a single man... Let's look:

First he says that Muslims should guard what they say in front of infidels and to be patient with them.
73:10 And bear patiently what they say and avoid them with a becoming avoidance.

Then he says slay the infidels where ever you find them.
2:191 And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Argue gently with the Jews, the Christians, and the infidels.
16:125 Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.

Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax.
9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

One is free to practice whatever religion one belongs to.
109:6 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.
3:85 And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers (in the Hereafter).

Do not force the infidels into Islam.
10.99: And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?

Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.
5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Show forgiveness towards the unbelievers.
15:85 And We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them two but in truth; and the hour is most surely coming, so turn away with kindly forgiveness.

Be harsh with the unbelievers.
9:73 O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

I can cite more discrepancies if you wish.

And the part about treating women... Listen well...
Hadith are always a bad source to refer to, since they were not edit-free like verses, and got evolved from person to person within this huge period of time.

I find it interesting that you are so quick to discount the 150 ahadith even though the Sunnah, or Muslim way of life, requires that you follow it. It is also taught by all Madhhab (Islamic "school of thought"). But for now, I'll indulge you and just stick to the Qur'an and what it says. Let's look at what the main book says about women.

Women are worth half as much as a man.
4:11 Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females;

It is better to bathe in dirt and pray than to pray after touching a woman.
4:43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) traveling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

If a woman is accused of lewd behavior, shut them away until they die of starvation, but it takes 4 witnesses to do this.
4:15 And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

BUT a single man can swear 4 times by Allah and accuse a woman of anything he wants and she will be judged as though 4 witnesses testified against her.
24:6 And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

Women must wear the veil.
33:59 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(Note that if a woman is not wearing the veil, she is guilty of lewd behavior and is subject to such judgments.)

Adulterers must be whipped 100 times, as is dictated by Allah.
24:2 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

If a girl is raped, you can force her to whoredom.
24:33 ...and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; [but here's the freedom-to-pimp card:] and whoever compels (rapes) them, then surely after their compulsion. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

But, in one of your videos , some guy referred to the surah of "Nisa".
This is also an issue where lots of misinterpretation occurs.
(snip)
darb : is force, and it has several uses.

the one, which is used in this context , is "leave" them, and emotionally shock them.

I think an Arab who grew up in the Islamic culture will have a better understanding of Islam and the Arabic language that you, who merely holds a tenuous grasp of the language. It's the same as an Orthodox or Messianic Jew knowing far more about the Hebrew language and has a far better understanding of the Bible than anyone else in other countries, even if they are university graduates. I think I'll favor what all those Arabs with turbans have to say about the word "darb" and "force" and its meaning above what you are trying to feed me.

As for the one, where you were saying that islam allows having sex with young girls, I remember that the verse clearly said that "when their breasts got mature/became like a mature's", which is when the girl turns into an adult. Like I said, In my country the avarage age when girls can get married is 16, which is the end of their blue-age. I see no contradiction , do you ?

This goes back to the ahadith which you are quick to discount. Under the ahadith, laws about sex with such young girls is allowed. And we aren't talking about the laws in your country, but what the Islamic view on these laws. The ahadith plays a major role in the life of a Muslim, but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you would discount it since you are a moderate Muslim.

Next time, find stronger proof to support your claims.

And so I have...

Good days, brother. PEace be with you.

Don't give me that. We aren't brothers and we haven't liked each other since your first reply to me. All we've done is argue and fight at every turn throughout these forums even before I started this thread. Telling me "peace be with you" all of the sudden is a transparent ploy to try and "show" how good and peaceful you are as a Muslim at the moment. What you say right now in seven words doesn't discount the pages of what you have said in the past. I don't dislike you because you are Muslim. I dislike you because of the way you interact with me.

At least I'm honest about who I like and dislike. Burn in hell.

[daniel2]

What the fuck seriously? Under what grounds are men allowed to have such dominance ?

[Slayden]

Yes kiziroglu, just under what grounds are men allowed to have such unbridled dominance? or are you just going to repeat "mistranslations" and that I don't know what I'm talking about?

[kiziroglu]

What the fuck seriously? Under what grounds are men allowed to have such dominance ?

man... I love this...
read this small story which I've just wrote.

<<
and it was friday! Jane loves fridays, it was her fave. day. She went through her agenda, to see what it was she's planned to do for today. she stabbed his finger on the page , where there was the name "john" written several times. She grabbed her phone, and in the mean time, she moved towards her heart-shaped mirror. She then, remembered the day he had given this to her. It was in a pack, wrapped several times. She had tried so hard to open it that she had broken her nails. When she opened it though, she was very surpriesd. BEcause this was the centuries-old mirror which she mentioned of, on the day when they drank to their biggest achievement in the life; on the day when he proposed, with his hands holding the ring with blood-colored-diamond on it.
>>
okay, I must admit, it was not very exciting. Yet, hear this.
<<
And Jane stabbed john several times in the heart. Then she opened it, and drank his blood.
>>
Am I talking to walls here ?
I'm telling you to see the big picture, then you come up with simliar type of quotations ? Gosh...
manipulating is not very hard to do. I'm telling you that this book is the Holy Qur'an, the biggest miracle of Muhammed(pbuh), and then you come here, give me your short quotations, as if they prove something... They don't!!
If you're going to judge a religion, you cannot stand away, and judge what you see on the surface.

What the fuck seriously? Under what grounds are men allowed to have such dominance ?
Could you find the answer yet ?

under the grounds of which some people cut the whole story into pieces, and fed people with those... Jane is a bloody murderer, I bet she is. Having written the story, I know that those two are lovers, but as long as you don't keep your minds open to understand the truth behind writings, those writings will always stand as a wall between you, adn the truth.

3 blind men are taken to observe an elephant. each one of them touch one part, and one thinks that it was a snake, one thinks that it was a barrel, and one thinks that it was a pipe. You do not have to be blind... Just open your eyes.

Good days... brothers
I call you brother, whter you feel like it or not. You might find me as "not peaceful being" over the net, which I have no objections against. I got aggressive, when I had to. may be you should read those quotations of yours, and see whether my actions are lkinked to any of those verses, which you guys can achieve to interpret in very interesting ways.

Peace be with you
I'm gonna do it... While you're cursing, I'm gonna wish for your good. Try it, it feels good.

edit*
You can reply, if you want to. but just know that, that reply of yours is not meant for me.
I'm off, pm me when you got something new to say. I'll reply asa.I can .

**another edit**
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
it's no ordinary cookie! it has cream in it! for gods sake! Don't keep telling me that it is like any ordinary cookie. Cuz, it is Not.

May peace be with you...

[chimpzy]

Yes kiziroglu, just under what grounds are men allowed to have such unbridled dominance? or are you just going to repeat "mistranslations" and that I don't know what I'm talking about?
Good point. That is something that keeps unnerving me everytime I see Muslims being confronted with something they deem undesirable.

No matter how objective and condemning the facts are, I have never, EVER heard a Muslim admit that another Muslim can commit such crimes as adultery, (sexual) abuse, rape, incest, genital mutilation and a whole slew of others. They argue that a true follower of Islam does not do such things and is virtuous without fault. Those that do commit these acts are not true followers and/or have misinterpreted the scriptures. This is usually followed by the reciting of several verses from the Qu'ran interpreted so that they support these claims (It wouldn't be the first time I heard the same verse receiving one explanation, while the next one is it's exact polar opposite)

Kiziroglu, no offense, but in this respect your reaction was very stereotypical.

I must ask: do Muslims actually believe this? Or is the taboo surrounding these topics so omnipresent that even in the safety and anonimity of the internet no one dares speak of them?
Every community has it's bad seeds regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or whatever else one might like to come up with to excuse oneself. There are no exceptions made.
These things happen everywhere at any time and no amount of sticking your head in the sand, pretending you didn't see it so you can deny it, will change this.

Now to I'm going to go back to the whole 'If a provocatively dressed woman is raped, she must have asked for it' thing for a minute. Let's give this a different, more daring explanation, turning the tables around a bit:
'If a Muslim man rapes a provocatively dressed woman, it is not because she asks for it. It is because he is weak and cannot resist the temptation of a woman'
Crude, full of flawed reasoning and most likely considered offensive ... but effective. It has inflicted the 'silence' status on many a target I tried it on. Now make comparisons.

[pretmaker]

Kiziroglu, no offense, but in this respect your reaction was very stereotypical.

I must ask: do Muslims actually believe this? Or is the taboo surrounding these topics so omnipresent that even in the safety and anonimity of the internet no one dares speak of them?

He is speaking about them. Just like you guys are. But if you are not really reading his posts then you do not know what he is talking about.


Every community has it's bad seeds regardless of race, ethnicity, religion or whatever else one might like to come up with to excuse oneself. There are no exceptions made.
These things happen everywhere at any time and no amount of sticking your head in the sand, pretending you didn't see it so you can deny it, will change this.

He also admitted that there are some bad people in the muslim believes. Just like there are people that are bad on the cristian believes. Just like there are people that are wrong on jewish believes.
It is just interpretation. If you follow a holy book to the letter then you should not make any mistakes. But a holy book can be interpretated any way.

It is just the imagination of the less developed minds that make a run with their own believes. I have seen it in roman/cristian/muslim/devil/jewish... Hell I have seen it anywhere. Even with budism.


Now to I'm going to go back to the whole 'If a provocatively dressed woman is raped, she must have asked for it' thing for a minute. Let's give this a different, more daring explanation, turning the tables around a bit:

'If a Muslim man rapes a provocatively dressed woman, it is not because she asks for it. It is because he is weak and cannot resist the temptation of a woman'
Crude, full of flawed reasoning and most likely considered offensive ... but effective. It has inflicted the 'silence' status on many a target I tried it on. Now make comparisons.

You do not have to be muslim to rape a woman. I can also rape a women if I want to. Does that make me Muslim or Cristian? It makes me what I am.

If only people would be honest and for once not manipulated by the news stations. Just like the Iraq war. Just like all those other wars that are going on.
Hell I can say that it is Bush that needed to get oil or an law accepted. But that is not going to help it any way.
Iraq needs to be rebuild now becaus it is being destroyed by war. It is just the truth.
Action leads to reaction.

And if you ask me... I have seen women and children around the age of 16 dressed like hookers. And believe it or not but they are even having sex behind a church. In the old days the sunday girls where the best (according to stories by the old fokes here) They always where "in the mood" on a sunday. While the preacher was preaching they where or inside listening or outside doing something with the boys. And if they where not outside during the miss then they went outside after and still did it.

Hell I have heard the numbers... Some guys got like 25 in one day.... Hell even I can not handle that number. But in the old days it was possible apparently.
If it was one old man that told me this I would not believe it. But almost 70% of the old man at the older persons home tell me this story.


And as last...
It is your own decision if you want to rape some1 or not. I do not remember where it comes from. But I have heard that the qu`ran (sorry for the spelling but I have no idea how to write it in English. In Dutch it is Koran) had to be interpretated as guide lines. Just like any other believe.

Do not forget that it was written and told in a different time.

Now I will ask you.... chimpzy


What gives you the right to condem a man for his own actions. Who are you to say that he is wrong. What gives you the right to judge verdict on a man while you can not even be unbaised enough and only be lead by feelings?


And in my opinion... this should end some time...
The man will get his verdict by people (or a thing) who have more autorithy then you have.
It is not the question if a believe is wrong or not. That is for the person himself to decide. If you really want to take up some arms in arguments then come to the philosophers corner and join the discussions there. Then we have more controll without filling up the forums with arguing.
(Link is in the picture in my signature)
That is offcorse if you can handle it. Seeïng that you are easilly offended.....

[earth123]

Now that's just gross..Nothings worst then this..It makes "INCEST" look nice and legal!!

Argg..Gross!! And Seriously?!?!?!?

[diana1986]

it's terrible i think the world need to ban all the man like him

[r5man]

Islam isnot like that, keep reading from these crazy websites that imagine the lust and the worest sex fantasies and then call it Islam

[hLz15]

Some Contries in the east go by the saying
*Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed (As in Periods/Time of the Month)*

Personally I'm a Loli fan, but when it comes to Real Life Pedo stuff, that's just wrong... that jist gives the Loli Art fans a Bad name...

:bingo2: :bingo2: :bingo2: :bingo2: :bingo2:


I couldn't agree more

[Taser]

Wow that seems pretty bad. But I'm pretty sure that it's just a misinterpretation of words, if of course these things are written down. Keep in mind quite a few humans have twisted the words of sort of "god" figure. Not that I'm muslime, or christian, but like I just don't think a religion itself would say all that stuff is ok. Like personally, I think this is slightly misleading, or a misrepresentation of the muslims. I know a muslim, I cannot beleive he would be part of a relief system like this.

[AnimeUSMC1775]

As taser said, The words of God, no matter what religion have historically been twisted by those in power to make themselves more powerful, or for some other reason that favors them. Another thing to remember, think of how many times these texts have been translated and interpited. One thing that we have to remember; when mankind interpits, mankind fucks it up. It's no wonder why the world is no messed up. We really know nothing of the past, because it has ben rewritten and misinterpited so many times. So now we have nothing to learn from, and we keep making the same friggin mistakes, and those who want domination, or whatever else is in their greedy evil little blackened hearts wants. hense, you have what we are talking about here now, the fact that appearently the Islamic Quran allows men to scrogg little girls. I got the simplest answer for this debate. We are ALL fucked up. There, that says it all.

[Taser]

As taser said, The words of God, no matter what religion have historically been twisted by those in power to make themselves more powerful, or for some other reason that favors them. Another thing to remember, think of how many times these texts have been translated and interpited. One thing that we have to remember; when mankind interpits, mankind fucks it up. It's no wonder why the world is no messed up. We really know nothing of the past, because it has ben rewritten and misinterpited so many times. So now we have nothing to learn from, and we keep making the same friggin mistakes, and those who want domination, or whatever else is in their greedy evil little blackened hearts wants. hense, you have what we are talking about here now, the fact that appearently the Islamic Quran allows men to scrogg little girls. I got the simplest answer for this debate. We are ALL fucked up. There, that says it all.
lol, i love it when people refer to what I say to be right.
Yah he's totally right. The only real non twisted scripts now are the one's that were never retranslated. And I only know of 3 religions that have original scrips or rather, the orignal scripts that have been copied word for word. So it's humans, not the original scriptures. I've seen a thing like this before, but except of hitting the muslims it was hitting the jewish, and it generated a lot more hate for the jewish too, or so what i saw from the comments on it. But its just been misinterpreted, and misrepreasented. For my religion (its not really a religion) I was taught that every single religion is the "right one". I was taught that different deities came down to earth to spread the word of enlightlenment, but since they were different deities, they might have taught differently, but the same general idea of heavens mesage was the same. I was also taught that some words of the deities have been twisted by some humans. So in my eyes, this thread all together seems a bit weird.

[AnimeUSMC1775]

lol, i love it when people refer to what I say to be right.
Yah he's totally right. The only real non twisted scripts now are the one's that were never retranslated. And I only know of 3 religions that have original scrips or rather, the orignal scripts that have been copied word for word. So it's humans, not the original scriptures. I've seen a thing like this before, but except of hitting the muslims it was hitting the jewish, and it generated a lot more hate for the jewish too, or so what i saw from the comments on it. But its just been misinterpreted, and misrepreasented. For my religion (its not really a religion) I was taught that every single religion is the "right one". I was taught that different deities came down to earth to spread the word of enlightlenment, but since they were different deities, they might have taught differently, but the same general idea of heavens mesage was the same. I was also taught that some words of the deities have been twisted by some humans. So in my eyes, this thread all together seems a bit weird.
FINALLY! Someone who has the same Spiritual point of view as myself, along with a very similar world view.