Painless Rape: A Moral Dilemma

[Slayden]

The last board I posted a similar topic like this in, it nearly started a forest fire. But I didn't have as much scientific data then as I do now so the results and discussion should be pretty different. This actually was originally going to be part of a post in the "What do girls feel when they get an orgasm?" thread but as it got deeper I thought it would actually be better in its own thread, especially considering the moral dilemma I present at the end.

Oh and don't reply with "Things that are done in hentai should not be done in real life." That response is not welcome in this thread. I was sick of that chant clogging the air last time and I'm still sick of it now. This is real life with real science in 3D I'm talking about not hentai fantasy in 2D. Period.


First off I would like to inform everyone on where orgasms truly begin. The spine is actually where orgasms originate, not the brain. Ever notice the pressure or tingling sensation at the base of your spine when you are about to cum? The chit-chat between the genitals and the spine is what causes the delightful sensations and the orgasm that eventually follows. The brain has some input regarding this, just as the brain has some input for blinking and breathing, but it is largely automatic. Sexual stimulation is likened to a prolonged knee-jerk reaction, where the sensory signal is split in two once it reaches the spine; half of the signal "informs" the brain as to what is going on while the other half of the signal goes right back to the genitals with the message "gimme more."

The brain can impede or accelerate the process of reacting to the sexual stimulation, but all it can do is regulate how quickly or slowly the orgasm comes. The brain doesn't have the final say in a definitive "yes" or "no" sense. As I said, the genitals and spine are merely "informing" the brain as to what is going on, not asking for its approval. This matter is complicated when rape enters the equation.

As I said, this becomes very complicated and very delicate. To begin, pain will interfere with everything, even in the function of vital organs. The body is under duress and goes into survival mode when enough pain is applied, regardless of the source of pain. In the case of rape, you've got mixed signals going to the brain. There is a little pleasure in it, but almost all pain, so the pain overrides what little pleasure is being felt. Furthermore, the brain, as aforementioned, can suppress sexual pleasure. So if a woman truly does not want it at all, she will feel nothing but pain during an experience of unprepared penetration.

Now we're going to cross over to a morally questionable (in my opinion, still wrong) circumstance. I'm hesitant to mention it considering the context, but I believe in the freedom of information. I also believe in the freedom to watch people's perplexed, hesitant responses too. A woman can be raped, without pain, and feel an orgasm. I suppose you could call it the ultimate forbidden knowledge of human sexuality. Just as one can have painless anal sex due to technique, a painless rape may be performed, also due to technique. In fact, this is even easier than performing painless anal. However, I haven't actually done this one to a girl.

If a woman were tied up against her will and stripped, she'll be feeling a lot of fear at this point. But under these circumstances she is handled in an unexpected way. The rapist fondles her genitals exactly the same way as though it was consensual (in short, foreplay). Given the gentle touch, her vagina would react in the exact same fashion as though she wanted it. Blood would still swell her labia (her pussy lips), her vagina would still become more flexible, and she would still get wet. The only difference is, her brain would be suppressing the signals and prolonging the amount of time it would take to get her body in the mood. Fingers, vibrators, even a penis could be inserted after a time and she would feel no pain because her vagina and spine are acting of their own accord, without the brain having a say in it. And despite that her brain is fighting the sensations, an orgasm is inevitable. She cannot stop it. She is forced to feel good.

To make this easier to understand, the same applies to guys. It's not one-sided you see. Tie up a guy against his will and jack him off without him wanting it and he will orgasm. It is exactly the same. There is no difference in principle, only time. It would take longer to get a woman to achieve orgasm in this fashion than a guy.

Now here's where it gets better. Put a girl in this situation. She feels no pain and she orgasmed, but she was forced. Was she raped? Most would say "yes." Now put a guy in this situation. Obviously no pain and he orgasmed, but he was forced. Was he raped? Most would say "Uhhhhh..."

What would you say?

Personally, if I was tied up and forcibly jacked off (as funny as it sounds), I would not be happy afterward. Basically it was done without my permission. I would have a mental feeling of discomfort, and maybe a bit of guilt, but trauma would not be a factor at all. If a woman had a rape fantasy and asked me to do this I would likely do it, but other than that, it's a little too close for comfort to the standard, traumatic rape.

Thoughts? I'm especially interested in girl's opinions on this, but guys are welcome too. (If you dare to reply)

[krnxknight]

orgasm is a physical response; like you said, beating off a guy will result in him ejaculating, whether he wants to or not. same with females. this is true, yes.

i mentioned rape in the previous thread because if i was raped, even though the sex could be great, i wouldn't enjoy it because the feeling of helplessness i'd have, compounded with the fear for my life and other factors. rape is about power and control <<< textbook definition. i won't disagree that the physical act of rape is pleasurable, yet all the other factors like fear and helplessness tend to shut that part out.
i use his because i'm a female and rapists that would target me are typically male. i've never been successfully raped so females that have been, feel free to shoot my argument to the ground or agree.

as for you getting tied up and jacked off, typically rape of a female involves insertion of something and usually doesn't result in orgasm.
but let's say the female did orgasm. if it was against her will, it was rape. if it was against your, the male's, will, it was also rape and holds up in court.
rape is rape, pleasurable or not.

[daniel2]

Rape is rape. End of story. While Slayden sounds quite correct (hes done more research then I have on the subject and while I don't see citation I have no reason not to believe the man) I think that any act of sexual deviousness against the persons will or results in domination and over control of another person is more or less considered sexual assault. amirite? Here we are not allowed to call it rape. (But I'll be raped before I stop calling it that, pun). In Australia its "sexual assault" because rape is a pretty harsh word.

I wouldn't wish the type of feeling on any female, no one deserves it.

However I myself, like Slayden are male. We can only try to comprehend what it must be like. While it would seem that direct sexual stimulation would result in orgasm no matter the circumstances (unless mass amounts of pain are involved, which cancels out the feelings of pleasure) there are also people I know who have NEVER EVER had an orgasm. Would these people have a chance of orgasming? I don't think so, not from a stranger, or if not a stranger, not from rape (in general){unless a rape fantasy was needed to make them orgasm}.

For me, I'm still only 16, I value my knowledge and experience on female genitalia but I'm finding it hard to give input into this thread, maybe because of my age, maybe because I woke up at 6:00am this morning (against my will) and it is now 7:17am and I am extremely tired but cannot sleep.

I'll see where this goes and weather or not my posts would have any input or not in the matter.

[Kenadian]

Even if it was done to a guy, regardless of the usual "uhhhh" response from society at large, if it was against his will he was still technically raped. So personally, I consider it as morally reprehensible as the "painless rape" of a woman, as you described.

[reminder]

Rape always was, and always will be, psychological abuse more than physical one. If we look at it... well, (most of) wounds heal. Let's look at a female who already lost her virginity (most of 14+ girls nowadays, lol). What physically is rape to her? One more time when she has sex, nothing more. Yeah, it's painful, but physical pain goes away soon.


What is more important is the psychological condition of that girl. It's so much harder to heal those scars, make a girl forget that she was taken against her will.

Painless rape is almost as bad as panful one, since the girl may experience an orgasm with her body, but her mind will be against it. Some things are "good" only when you think of them as "good"...

[daniel2]

Let's look at a female who already lost her virginity (most of 14+ girls nowadays, lol).

I have no idea what part of the world you come from. But thats defiantly not the case here, most girls here are virgins until they are about 17 - 18.
I think some girls would LIKE to lose their virginity at age 15 - 16 but unless they turn into a whore or unless they don't give a shit who gets it, all girls here are looking for a strong iron relationship thats sexually healthy.

My ex wasn't ready for sex at 14.

[Slayden]

Interesting responses. I agree that in both cases, even in the male's case, it is technically rape.

If you want citations, you can Google "orgasm spine" without quotes and get several sources. Hell here's a link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Rape always was, and always will be, psychological abuse more than physical one. If we look at it... well, (most of) wounds heal. Let's look at a female who already lost her virginity (most of 14+ girls nowadays, lol). What physically is rape to her? One more time when she has sex, nothing more. Yeah, it's painful, but physical pain goes away soon.

What is more important is the psychological condition of that girl. It's so much harder to heal those scars, make a girl forget that she was taken against her will.

Painless rape is almost as bad as panful one, since the girl may experience an orgasm with her body, but her mind will be against it. Some things are "good" only when you think of them as "good"...

Not quite. The deep mental scars caused by a traumatic rape results from the physical pain of the experience, not the "idea" of being taken without permission. A rape performed in the way I described would result in guilt, unhappiness, and a general feeling of mental discomfort, but not the mind-breaking result, and heart-wrenching sight, of a girl who was brutalized. I would feel this way too if I was tied up and forcibly jerked off by a guy (I'm not gay).

[Junior666]

Wow. Leave it to Slayden to create a thread like this. XD

I understand the whole 'Painless rape' thing, but making a girl orgasm against her will is very humiliating. I mean, I'd feel as if I asked for it then. It seems a bit more cruel than painful rape.

[EviL]

Wow. Leave it to Slayden to create a thread like this. XD

I understand the whole 'Painless rape' thing, but making a girl orgasm against her will is very humiliating. I mean, I'd feel as if I asked for it then. It seems a bit more cruel than painful rape.

Which your not alone a lot of girls that suffer from rape trauma sometimes ending up killing themselves because they believe that they were asking for it because they believe they enjoyed it just because an orgasm was involved. I can't imagine what it's like to go through such an experience but I know the men that do this are cowards and are very disgusting.

[daniel2]

I think we all fundamentally agree on that EviL.

[vengeance]

Now let me get this straight if i understanding what your trying to say here.......
Your saying would it be consider rape if the girl/guy was feeling good even though they are being violated? Is there such a thing as a painless rape?

*probably* be yes........i would say.....
physically no harm was done to the person, plus while they don't want to feel good while gently and carefully violated, in fact they probably are.......since its only a natural human reaction when being stimulated in the right way.

They only thing being raped is the mentality part, against your will & your pride/honor. But regardless it still rape no matter how you look at it.

[Slayden]

Wow. Leave it to Slayden to create a thread like this. XD

Ha ha. I'm an intellectual. iNFj ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) to be exact.

I understand the whole 'Painless rape' thing, but making a girl orgasm against her will is very humiliating. I mean, I'd feel as if I asked for it then. It seems a bit more cruel than painful rape.

On paper it might seem more cruel, but have you actually met someone who was brutalized? I know many people who have been raped, some in my own family. And to hear them talk to me about it... I literally get murderous thoughts when I see them break all over again just describing what they went through.

I'll go so far as to say that the painless rape is a "mercy," though I have to admit that I'm stretching that word pretty damn far in using it. It's not as cruel as a brutal rape, nevertheless wrong is wrong.

Which your not alone a lot of girls that suffer from rape trauma sometimes ending up killing themselves because they believe that they were asking for it because they believe they enjoyed it just because an orgasm was involved.

I don't think you know much about rape. I have family as prison guards and I grew up hearing stories so grotesque it would make you vomit. The depravity, the debased actions of the worst of the worst. I know the crimes of guys that need executing but the insane politicians and ignorant population want spared.

Rape victims (male or female) kill themselves because of the mental wounds and gashings that the PAIN from the rape inflict on the mind. Guys that are anally raped feel no pleasure in it, yet they kill themselves as often as female rape victims. And no it's not because deep down the feel like they asked for it. I don't know where you got that one. The physical pain causes lasting mental wounds. It's the pain. The PAIN. The PAIN. How many times do I have to fucking repeat it?!

Argh. I'm getting myself worked up...

Torture victims go through the exact same thing as rape victims, though it takes a few days to do to a person by torture what rape can do in a few minutes. And no it's not because they think they "asked" to be tortured.

I can't imagine what it's like to go through such an experience but I know the men that do this are cowards and are very disgusting.

Near-genocides and wars have been started because of it. I'm not kidding. The Jews nearly genocided their tribe of Benjamin for the gang rape of a man's concubine. The men of the other tribes gathered together without the permission of the prophet or the high priest to annihilate the whole tribe for what one group among them did. It's actually in the Bible, somewhere in either Isiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, or Ezekiel. I learned about that like 3 or 4 years ago.

Bodecea, queen of the Iceni in Britannia (what is now Briton), was flogged by the Romans and her two daughters raped in the A.D. 60s after the king died. This was before the Angles or Saxons invaded and eventually became the English (the people of the Celtic Isles have been greatly abused throughout history). Anyway, the enraged Bodecea easily gathered an army from not only the Iceni, but also from the surrounding kingdoms as well. You see, the Celts have great respect for women, and too see what was done to their queen and princesses...

This army elected Bodecea to be their leader, and she led them across Britannia, destroying 3 major Roman cities, including razing the newly established Londonium to the ground. They were not interested in taking prisoners either.

Bodecea and her army was crushed by the strategically minded Romans in the end, however, entirely due to her blind rage and simply charging into battle without strategy.

So you see, it's natural for men to despise rapists and want to kill them.

Now let me get this straight if i understanding what your trying to say here.......
Your saying would it be consider rape if the girl/guy was feeling good even though they are being violated? Is there such a thing as a painless rape?

*probably* be yes........i would say.....

I was struggling with the terminology on this too, because there is no word for this kind of action. In a technical sense, rape has been performed, but in a practical sense, that word seems out of place. I don't really know what to call it, and it is still wrong, so I'm pretty much falling back on its technical description.

physically no harm was done to the person, plus while they don't want to feel good while gently and carefully violated, in fact they probably are.......since its only a natural human reaction when being stimulated in the right way.

They only thing being raped is the mentality part, against your will & your pride/honor. But regardless it still rape no matter how you look at it.

Yes you've got it, mostly. The physical pain of brutal rape is what causes the mental issues, but that part is eliminated with the pain. We are left only with an ambiguous idea of violation rather than a mind shattering experience that is associated with the term "rape." A better description would be the epitome of sexual harassment. While it may not seem like strong enough terminology at first, I would say this fits the action the best.

[EviL]

I do not want to know much about rape, all that I need to know is that it's despicable and unjustifiable.

[daniel2]

Did you even read the thread ?

[Junior666]

Hey Slayden, what direction are you going in with this topic? Did you just want people's opinions? I'm kinda curious. o.o

I don't think people really get what you're trying to say. I think most think you're saying rape is okay if it's painless.

I dunno. *shrugs* I'm just a kid. =)

[Kenadian]

Hey Slayden, what direction are you going in with this topic? Did you just want people's opinions? I'm kinda curious. o.o

I don't think people really get what you're trying to say. I think most think you're saying rape is okay if it's painless.

I dunno. *shrugs* I'm just a kid. =)

I think he's asking people what they think on it, whether it is moral or not or something like that.

And for what it's worth, most of us are "kids" here anyways. I know I wouldn't consider myself an adult yet, even if I am physically and legally. That being said, Slayden can't be much older than you, he's only 20.

[kiziroglu]

jsut wannna add a little comment here.
your thread title is : "painless rape ; a moral dilemma"
reading this, I'd assume that your understanding of rape is abusing one person "physically". mine, in fact , is that the existence of the physical action without one side not wanting it. Not only mine, but also of the laws...

*edit*
morals aren't build on the reflections to the physical acts, they're build on the understandings of those acts; painful, or painless...

[Junior666]

nah, he's definitely older than me mentally.

But I swear, the way people've reacted, you'd think he said painless rape was okay.

I suppose the whole moral thing...whether people would consider it rape if it was enjoyable? o.o

[Kenadian]

Well, despite what hentai might have you believe, it isn't morally acceptable. <___<

[meatwad562]

You rape me long time.? Jk I wonder if that was done to me i would say HELL YEAH BOIII....> but from a girl, I don't swing that way.

[daniel2]

Hey Slayden, what direction are you going in with this topic? Did you just want people's opinions? I'm kinda curious. o.o

I don't think people really get what you're trying to say. I think most think you're saying rape is okay if it's painless.

I dunno. *shrugs* I'm just a kid. =)

Thats what I was thinking just then, just as I opened the thread.

Slayden?

[Slayden]

Hey Slayden, what direction are you going in with this topic? Did you just want people's opinions? I'm kinda curious. o.o

I don't think people really get what you're trying to say. I think most think you're saying rape is okay if it's painless.

I dunno. *shrugs* I'm just a kid. =)

At the time I was writing it, I had mixed feelings as to whether or not I should even have started this thread, and I still have mixed feelings about it now, simply because I knew many people would misunderstand my intentions and think I support rape if it is painless. This is not uncommon for me. Most people misunderstand me and are confused by me because of how deep I take things while considering all sides. I've been told that I make people's brains hurt, that I'm overeducated, that I think I'm better than them, that I'm a know-it-all or a smart ass. Just because I can solve a Rubik's cube or know what "dactylioglyph" or "antidisestablishmentarianism" is (and spell it correctly) doesn't mean I think I'm better than everyone else.

:em035: Images and superficiality are the norm these days.

My intention was to have an intelligent conversation on a topic that isn't so easily pigeonholed. And the fact that this is a sensitive topic takes it to the extreme, making it even more appealing and thought-provoking. I try to get people to pause and seriously think about something before answering. In short, I want someone to talk to, and not just on the surface.
:defeat:

I wrote an article a while back on the Schizophrenic condition and was met with similar response.

I think he's asking people what they think on it, whether it is moral or not or something like that.

Mostly. A small part of it was also me wanting input from some of these girls that have rape fantasies, what their take on it is. But mostly, I just wanted to know what people thought about it. Also most people don't know the different and unexpected ways that the body functions and I wanted to know how people would react to that too.

People think that so much is in their power, when in reality, very little is. Even modern society's "control" over nature is a tenuous and self-deluded grasp. When you break it down to something so simple as sexual consent, and the fact that people thought they had absolute power over their decision of "yes" or "no" and you take that away, forcing a person to feel good, something has to "click" inside. Even the concept is enough to show just how small and powerless we really are, even when it comes to our own bodies. And THAT is a reaction I was hoping for, even though deep down I knew it wouldn't come.
:sigh:

And for what it's worth, most of us are "kids" here anyways. I know I wouldn't consider myself an adult yet, even if I am physically and legally. That being said, Slayden can't be much older than you, he's only 20.

nah, he's definitely older than me mentally.

About 4 years ago, an elderly woman (in her 70s I think), said I had the maturity of a 40 year old. I've grown a lot mentally in those 4 years so I'm not sure what I would be considered now. I only feel even more alienated and ostracized now from it. I can talk to the old because many of them understand me, but tend to discount me for my youth. The young are willing to accept me at first because of my youth, but over time tend to either fear me or ignore me.

They all know however, young or old, that if they have a problem and need someone to talk to about a personal issue, that they can come to me and I'll listen and try to help.

It's true that a person grows sadder as they grow wiser.

jsut wannna add a little comment here.
your thread title is : "painless rape ; a moral dilemma"
reading this, I'd assume that your understanding of rape is abusing one person "physically". mine, in fact , is that the existence of the physical action without one side not wanting it. Not only mine, but also of the laws...

:em035: Believe what you wish. I've said over and over that true, brutalizing rape is a short, painful physical act that leaves lasting mental scars. It's the mind-body correlation. Remove the pain in the act in the first place and the lasting mental scars never become inset.

morals aren't build on the reflections to the physical acts, they're build on the understandings of those acts; painful, or painless...

I'll refer you to my previous statements and posts. I grow weary of those who hear, but do not listen.

But I swear, the way people've reacted, you'd think he said painless rape was okay.

Yes... And that is... regrettable.

I suppose the whole moral thing...whether people would consider it rape if it was enjoyable? o.o

That was another part, one of my first reasons in fact. Again I'm back to the pigeonhole issue and getting people to stop and really contemplate it.

[kiziroglu]

:em035: Believe what you wish. I've said over and over that true, brutalizing rape is a short, painful physical act that leaves lasting mental scars. It's the mind-body correlation. Remove the pain in the act in the first place and the lasting mental scars never become inset.



I'll refer you to my previous statements and posts. I grow weary of those who hear, but do not listen.

1- Instead, I'd say that I beleive what I see, not what you're trying to empose me. Under the topic of laws, there's the idea of "morals", and this changes from one society to another, why ? Because every society has its way of understanding certain aspects. So, what are those acts that are regarded under morals ? In a country where muslim people exist, one cannot go and place a plastic bag full of unpleasant things in front of the door of the mosque . does this plastic bag have any contact with the outside, other than being exist there ? no ! but putting unpleasant things in areas can be conceived as a swear, and regarded according to morals.
Putting nude pictures in an islamic website is high non-etical, even carrying one person without his permission into somewhere he wouldn't wish to go can be related to moral issues. Because what shapes the moral issues doesn't consist of the way the victim sees the issue, the reactions of environment is also effective. Simple, when we were younger, people would make fun of those who accidentally stepped inside the females bathroom so much that, they'd wish to leave the school...
and rape :
is it an act against one side's will ? so it's regarded as a crime...
is it mental abuse ? I think so, and will tell you why. For me, to be able to say that it's a mental abuse, I must prove the way victim feels/thinks about it is not well.
would you be offended if someone held your hands ? depends on how he held ; if he made it look like a gentleman kissing a matmazel's hand, you could be offended.
would you be offended if someone , touched your feet ? probably no, well it's the organ that's in the public for the whole day, why would you get offended. unless the guy is a foot fetishist, and making weird figures...
would you be offended if someone , touched you back ? again, probably no... when in the queue, in the lines, people always put their hands into others' backs, like telling them to move...
touching to knee ? well it shows friendship, as long as the two sides are from the same sex. an image with opposite sexes might seem like more than a friendship.
final question... would you be offended, if someone touched your "private area". uhuh! it's named "private area", there fore it needs to stay private, not taken into the public, touched by strangers... unllike you're guy like "Hell yeah! I have a dick! therefore I'm a man! feel me world!"...
this is one level higher, from touching like one's chest. regardless of the breasts, heart is usually seen as the symbol of love, and when touched by others, give certain ideas to others. and people wouldn't be pleased by that.

which comes to my point, regardless of the volume of pain, an act that is seen unpleasant by the victim, is regarded under morals. You wanna tell me it's not ? go for it, "beleive what you wish"...

2)
I grow weary of those who thinks that oppposement comes from ignorance. *sigh*

[Junior666]

Mostly. A small part of it was also me wanting input from some of these girls that have rape fantasies, what their take on it is. But mostly, I just wanted to know what people thought about it. Also most people don't know the different and unexpected ways that the body functions and I wanted to know how people would react to that too.

uh, I can help there.=) With the whole rape fantasy thing...since it's like, my favourite one. But anyway...normally, rape fantisies are basically painless rape encounters (depending on what the girl is into). But for me, it's just the rough foreplay and dominating feel (male taking the lead), not the actual forceful penetration. Ohno...I'm digressing. D:

My view on this, is I'd still totally be scarred for life. It's actually scarier than brutal rape since he'd first make your body want it before he does it. It seems a more...clever and intelligent approach than your average rapist.

Remove the pain in the act in the first place and the lasting mental scars never become inset.

So your theory is, painless rape is easier to overcome? o.o Well...none of us can be sure of that, so you can't say that would be incorrect.

And I have no idea where kiziroglu is going. I'll wait for Slayden to clear it up. o.o
And omg, yes, you are over-educated. =/

Marry me? =)

[kiziroglu]

gosh, I'm saying that rape isn't a verbal abuse, it's a mental abusement. and therefore doen't create a dilemma, like slayden is saying.
or.. I'l put it simple for you...
painful rape : non-ethical
painles rape : non-ethical
now, according to logic rules, painful or painles gives non-ethical.
you missed a point ?
it works like this :
true or true : true
false or false : false
true or false : false
false or true : false
now, no matter how you see non-ethical, true or false, it'll result in non-ethical. an equation that's consists of one single value cannot be labeled as dilemma.
can you now understand it ?
but of course, wait for slayden to enlighten you... like, you cannot think for yourself....
PS : I'm not saying anything, just interpreting his words...

[Junior666]

^Maybe if you posted it like that IN THE FIRST PLACE, it would've made more sense.
And it's not that I can't think for myself, I just prefer his way of putting things. He manages to explain things in a way I can understand. You tend to over-kill it and beat around the bush.

And who said it was 'verbal' abuse? It all depends on what's happening and the rapist. And the fact it's 'non-ethical' either way is a given. Rape could never be justified.

And if you seem to think is topic is a waste of time, or simply retarded, Leave. The way you post, it sounds like you think you're better.

We're suppose to DISCUSS, okay? =) Rudeness is unnecessary.

[kiziroglu]

sorry that my language bothers you. this is my way of putting things. Still trying to keep my actions under the limits of discussion. you tell me something bothers you, I excuse for that. okay ?

I don't think it's a waste of time. this thread exists for people to discuss, and discussions educate people. Actually, what I'm trying to do is, show the real dilemma in the topic, starting from the topic title. I already left, leaving my final comments on the issue, but I'm around, to see whether my words are understood wrong, or manipulated.

I always think I'm better. I have the greatest mom and dad on the world, I have the most understanding girlfriend I could ever find, I have th best friends that suit me. do I need anything else to make me feel better? hell, no...

[Junior666]

Thanks for understanding. ^^ And I apologize if I seemed rude before or anything. =)

Sounds almost like a God complex, but, that's off-topic.

When it comes to court, here anyway, if a girl was made to feel pleasure or if she enjoyed it, then I know they don't give the rapist a heavy sentence. I remember reading an article where they treated the victim more harshly than the rapist.

[Slayden]

which comes to my point, regardless of the volume of pain, an act that is seen unpleasant by the victim, is regarded under morals. You wanna tell me it's not ? go for it, "beleive what you wish"...

God. I'm just going to start quoting myself.

I agree that in both cases, even in the male's case, it is technically rape.

A rape performed in the way I described would result in guilt, unhappiness, and a general feeling of mental discomfort, but not the mind-breaking result, and heart-wrenching sight, of a girl who was brutalized. I would feel this way too if I was tied up and forcibly jerked off by a guy (I'm not gay).

When did I ever say that it isn't morally wrong? Just because the painless rape isn't as traumatic doesn't mean that it isn't still wrong. And now you want to quote me on words you are putting in my mouth? then scold me for it??

2)
I grow weary of those who thinks that oppposement comes from ignorance. *sigh*

Your tit for tat and veiled mockery reveal your maturity, or lack thereof.


uh, I can help there.=) With the whole rape fantasy thing...since it's like, my favourite one. But anyway...normally, rape fantisies are basically painless rape encounters (depending on what the girl is into). But for me, it's just the rough foreplay and dominating feel (male taking the lead), not the actual forceful penetration. Ohno...I'm digressing. D:

LOL
This is why I prefer talking to girls. Even the simple, cute responses have deeper shades of meaning.

My view on this, is I'd still totally be scarred for life. It's actually scarier than brutal rape since he'd first make your body want it before he does it. It seems a more...clever and intelligent approach than your average rapist.

Unnerving maybe, but certainly not scarier. And perhaps some scarring, but what I'm saying is it wouldn't nearly be as deep. My mother was raped you see, a few years before she met my father. And I grew up having to deal with her near-hatred for men because of it. It should also give you an idea on the way she treated me, being a male. So you see, I know what I'm talking about when I refer to the level of scarring.

She accidentally revealed it to me when we had a fight, then told me of the horror she felt during the experience, and just how much she wanted it to stop because of how much it hurt. She isn't the only victim I've talked to either. Everybody talks to me. Even strangers on the street who I've never met before tell me about their personal problems and medical issues. It's like I have a neon sign on my chest saying "I'm here, tell me your troubles." When it comes to rape victims, I personally know 7 of them, 4 of them in my family. I'm not making my statements lightly.

So your theory is, painless rape is easier to overcome? o.o Well...none of us can be sure of that, so you can't say that would be incorrect.

Yes my theory is painless rape is FAR easier to overcome than a brutal rape. But that doesn't mean that I am saying that it is okay to do it. It's the difference between stabbing someone in the leg with a pocketknife vs. hacking off their right arm with a machete. It is easier to recover from one, but with the other, you've lost something for life. This doesn't mean that I'm condoning going around stabbing people in the leg, however.

And I have no idea where kiziroglu is going. I'll wait for Slayden to clear it up. o.o

He's just being antagonistic and formulating opinions based on paying attention to only half of what he reads.

And omg, yes, you are over-educated. =/

Marry me? =)

:shy: Thanks. I needed that. :f529a952: I was starting to slip into a depression.

[daniel2]

Alas comming to ones terms with a mind like Slaydens makes thar` life hard-o`r.

*whistling wind*

However thy be a diff-er-ent stor-ay in thy's boudoir <3

hehe.

[kiziroglu]

who'm I kidding...
I don't need to read your posts, I only need to know what the truth is, and knowing that, I can see the real dilemma in your topic title, which you seem to can't admit.
label me what you want.. won't make any difference..
I'm off this... same old story...

[daniel2]

I don't need to read your posts, I only need to know what the truth is.

Sand in you eyes again? This topic isn't about "truth"

[Slayden]

Actually, what I'm trying to do is, show the real dilemma in the topic, starting from the topic title.

You haven't "shown" anything. I've already addressed everything you've pointed out several times over.

I always think I'm better. I have the greatest mom and dad on the world, I have the most understanding girlfriend I could ever find, I have th best friends that suit me. do I need anything else to make me feel better? hell, no...

I'm tired and getting cranky, so I don't know if you were joking or being an arrogant jackass. :yociexp10:

Thanks for understanding. ^^ And I apologize if I seemed rude before or anything. =)

You didn't say anything that was unnecessary so there is no need for you to apologize to him.

Sounds almost like a God complex, but, that's off-topic.

So I'm not the only one that sees it that way...

Alas comming to ones terms with a mind like Slaydens makes thar` life hard-o`r.

*whistling wind*

However thy be a diff-er-ent stor-ay in thy's boudoir <3

hehe.

Sorry ImI, it's going on 5:00 am here and I haven't slept. Are you trying to sound like a pirate? Lemme see... you are saying that it's hard to understand a mind like mine and that trying to meet me at my level makes life difficult, but that it's easy to understand me when I'm talking about bedroom practices (making love/sex).

The only reason it's easy to understand me on sexual issues and more difficult at other times is because people's focus is greater when it comes to sex. People are catching more, understanding more, and remembering more simply because they are giving my sexual tutorials all their attention. One needs equal focus in other areas I speak of if they want to truly understand me, but it is up to the individual if they want to give that kind of attention or not.

who'm I kidding...
I don't need to read your posts,

If you're not going to read the posts, get out of the fucking thread. The posts here aren't useless prattling like in the Everything/Nothing section.
:yociexp10:

I only need to know what the truth is, and knowing that, I can see the real dilemma in your topic title, which you seem to can't admit.
label me what you want.. won't make any difference..

You aren't saying anything. Besides, you yourself admitted to not reading the posts, so you can't dictate to me what I am and am not admitting. Ooooh I want to unleash The Librarian in me on you so bad but Arika won't allow it. I guess I'll just sit and smolder instead of flame.

I'm off this... same old story...

Good riddance and good night. I'm getting some shut eye. ZzZzZzzzz...

[daniel2]

No Slayden I was saying that when you think like us... which isn't normal. Because we have a different perspective that its harder to understand others as it is harder for them to understand us. It's our gift/our curse.

Thats the long and the short of it.

The last part was a little pun, that people like us who are observant and have a good memory as well as being able to act accordingly and on a dime are quite good in the bedroom. I myself have preformed oral many many times and I'm very good at it, while I'm still a virgin (hopefully not after this weekend ^____^) I think that my knowlege of sex is still profound.

This weekend I'll get to prove that, but thats getting way offtopic, I explained that in my thread. I think we both need some sleep before someones claws come out.

Goodnight.

[Junior666]

I myself have preformed oral many many times and I'm very good at it

Stop bragging. D: At that rate, you'll become VERY popular VERY soon. =)


Unnerving maybe, but certainly not scarier. And perhaps some scarring, but what I'm saying is it wouldn't nearly be as deep. My mother was raped you see, a few years before she met my father. And I grew up having to deal with her near-hatred for men because of it. It should also give you an idea on the way she treated me, being a male. So you see, I know what I'm talking about when I refer to the level of scarring.

She accidentally revealed it to me when we had a fight, then told me of the horror she felt during the experience, and just how much she wanted it to stop because of how much it hurt. She isn't the only victim I've talked to either. Everybody talks to me. Even strangers on the street who I've never met before tell me about their personal problems and medical issues. It's like I have a neon sign on my chest saying "I'm here, tell me your troubles." When it comes to rape victims, I personally know 7 of them, 4 of them in my family. I'm not making my statements lightly.

Well, I suppose it depends on the woman. o.o And I'm sorry to hear what your mother went through. D:
I've actually always wondered WHAT exactly was more painful during rape. The pain or the mental violation part? But you kinda cleared it up. The WHOLE rape package is what makes it terrible but specifically the physical pain? That's where the scarring starts from? o.o

I'm not really putting everything clear...^^;

[Kenadian]

Well, a thought just occurred to me. What if the "wrong" type of people read this thread?:em0129:

[Slayden]

I've actually always wondered WHAT exactly was more painful during rape. The pain or the mental violation part? But you kinda cleared it up. The WHOLE rape package is what makes it terrible but specifically the physical pain? That's where the scarring starts from? o.o

I'm not really putting everything clear...^^;

Yes it's the whole package. Not wanting it creates a situation where you just want to leave, anything to get away, which is why a lot of victims pretend that they are someplace else during the experience. But the deepest mental wounds come from the physical pain.

Er... one time I was wearing loose clothing and had the unfortunate displeasure of sitting on something of a short, rounded spike by accident (don't ask...). O[Only registered and activated users can see links] Oh that hurt like a SOB. It wasn't full penetration, but it hurt like hell. My ass was cussing me out for the next few days. But still, it gave me a glimpse as to what rape victims go through as all I had to do was imagine the pain I felt and multiply it. It was very easy to understand and more clear than ever after that.

If you want a quick way to understand the experience without actually being raped, take a dildo or similar object and quickly insert it in your anus about one or two full inches, without warmup and without lube. While it's not the same as a full rape, it does offer a glimpse, some insight into what happens.

For some reason, the orifices of the body wrack the mind when they are violated, and honestly, I haven't a clue as to why this is. If a person has an ulcer or something, doctors have to knock out a patient before sending a camera down the throat into the stomach to see what's wrong, because if they don't, the person will go into convulsions and go through the exact same experience as a rape victim, with the same consequences later.

The kind of anesthetics that doctors use for these procedures are aptly named "rape drugs," where the person is partially conscious of the camera going inside them and their bodies fight and resist, but when the patient awakens, they have no memory of the experience, thus no mental scarring.

Well, a thought just occurred to me. What if the "wrong" type of people read this thread?:em0129:

Way ahead of you. I was thinking about that before I even started this thread, but few enough people come to this section that I think the chances of the "wrong" type of person reading this thread is fairly low.

[daniel2]

Stop bragging. D: At that rate, you'll become VERY popular VERY soon. =)

I'm not bragging haha, I don't remotely have an ego. I don't need to brag to make myself feel better because I find happiness in the smallest things.

[vengeance]

Well, a thought just occurred to me. What if the "wrong" type of people read this thread?:em0129:


<----checks his name and user title........OH NOES...........i'm going to commit moar evil things in teh near future......j/k......

So wat was the REAL Purpose of this topic? Or there wasn't any real purpose, just to discuss about it? I sort of got loss between slaydens and Kiz argumentations.

But N e wayz.....not to get off topic......
I sort of sensing that this topic is leading to other topics such as, what if the person being raped, actually enjoyed it at the end? Would it still be considered rape and such? Feel free to continue with original topic as i like to hear more on ppl's views and thoughts as well.

[Slayden]

<----checks his name and user title........OH NOES...........i'm going to commit moar evil things in teh near future......j/k......

:em0128:

So wat was the REAL Purpose of this topic? Or there wasn't any real purpose, just to discuss about it? I sort of got loss between slaydens and Kiz argumentations.

Grr. There were a few reasons I started this topic, not just one. But I suppose you could think of it as just discussing it... >_>

[Unknown81888]

<----checks his name and user title........OH NOES...........i'm going to commit moar evil things in teh near future......j/k......

So wat was the REAL Purpose of this topic? Or there wasn't any real purpose, just to discuss about it? I sort of got loss between slaydens and Kiz argumentations.

But N e wayz.....not to get off topic......
I sort of sensing that this topic is leading to other topics such as, what if the person being raped, actually enjoyed it at the end? Would it still be considered rape and such? Feel free to continue with original topic as i like to hear more on ppl's views and thoughts as well.

I think that it depends on how good of a job you did to the person that they either consider rape or just another "night out" haha....

Anyways, in all seriousness...I think that it depends on WHO you're raping...I mean, some people are addicted to sex as much as they are to drugs @_@ and some other people would see it as something that will haunt them for the rest of their lives = /

In the end, it narrows down to WHO...Like if it was someone you know, it would make a difference as compared to a random stranger = /

Well, that's my opinion on it anyway....

[bellogallicum]

To make this easier to understand, the same applies to guys. It's not one-sided you see. Tie up a guy against his will and jack him off without him wanting it and he will orgasm. It is exactly the same. There is no difference in principle, only time. It would take longer to get a woman to achieve orgasm in this fashion than a guy.



I think you underestimate the power of the brain. You need a sexual feeling to have an orgasm. Just think of being raped by a fat ugly guy. So i think there is no painless rape. Rape is rape.

[chimpzy]

I think you underestimate the power of the brain. You need a sexual feeling to have an orgasm. Just think of being raped by a fat ugly guy. So i think there is no painless rape. Rape is rape.
Like Slayden said (and i dislike having to repeat anothers statements), the origin of orgasms is in the spine, not the brain.
If your nervous system signals your brain to prepare the body for sexual arrousal or orgasm (through hormonal production) in response to physical stimulation of said body, your brain WILL eventually give it the go-ahead (take note that the nervous system doesn't differentiate between unwanted and wanted stimuli)
The brain cannot stop this anymore than it can stop feelings of pain.
Yes, your brain will try to resist with all it's might and it will delay arrousal and orgasm (more so in women than men). But in a contest of power between brain and nervous system, the latter is the safe bet.

So, given proper proper stimulation, a person can be brought to orgasm against one's will and that person will feel the pleasurable sensations that come with it. I suppose the brain does have some say over HOW pleasurable, but i don't know for certain, so i'm leaving that open for debate. But ... physically painless rape is definately possible.

The mental scarring however ... but I'm not going to go into that as it's been said enough already.

PS:There are cases of people with spinal cord injury who have lost a great deal of sensation in their lower bodies (though not completely paralysed) reporting to be able to signal their bodies to spontaneously orgasm with sufficient mental concentration. If this is indeed true, then reversing it and stopping nervous signals could also be possible with extensive mental training.

[daniel2]

I think you underestimate the power of the brain. You need a sexual feeling to have an orgasm. Just think of being raped by a fat ugly guy. So i think there is no painless rape. Rape is rape.

The feeling comes from the spine, please read the WHOLE thread before you reply. This is a sensitive topic and a very serious and interesting one, we don't need nor want spam in here..

[bellogallicum]

The feeling comes from the spine, please read the WHOLE thread before you reply. This is a sensitive topic and a very serious and interesting one, we don't need nor want spam in here..

1. I always read before i post.
2. I know this is a sensitive subject and I'm aware of it
3. I don't know why you describe my opinion as spam
4. read for yourself, there is not just one truth out there ;)

"Orgasms are difficult to define, let alone reverse-engineer. A few blueprints, however, have already been sketched out. First, stimulating the genitals sends electrical impulses along three main paths -- the pelvic, hypogastric and pudendal nerves. Next, these titillating signals enter the spinal cord at the base of the spine and zip up to brain regions that respond to genital sensations.

Then other parts of the brain leap into action. Some send signals back down to the body with certain instructions -- lubricate the vagina, stiffen the penis, pump blood harder, breathe faster."

([Only registered and activated users can see links])

and read this:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You will see there are a few meanings how to get an orgasm.
I prefer to discuss not to argue.

[Slayden]

Then other parts of the brain leap into action. Some send signals back down to the body with certain instructions -- lubricate the vagina, stiffen the penis, pump blood harder, breathe faster.

First off there are a few different sources. Second, none of this doesn't change the fact that they have found that orgasms primarily originate from the spine. Third, that bit that I just quoted is entirely automatic, i.e. not controlled by the conscious mind.

[bellogallicum]

... Second, none of this doesn't change the fact that they have found that orgasms primarily originate from the spine....

It's your own source:

"Rutgers University's Komisaruk and retired Rutgers professor Beverly Whipple, coauthor of "The Science of Orgasm" and "The G Spot and Other Discoveries About Human Sexuality," believe they do know. But they don't think an orgasm is a reflex. Through studies of spinal-cord-injured women, they've found evidence of what appears to be a new orgasmic pathway, one that bypasses the spine completely.

The proposed detour makes use of a vast highway of nerves called the vagus nerve network. Like the vagabonds for which they were named, vagus nerves wander throughout the body. They start at the base of the brain, slide down the neck (but not the spinal cord) and stretch to all the major organs, and (at least in female rats) to the uterus and cervix. If vagus nerves reach human pelvises, genital signals could hopscotch over the spinal cord and still reach the brain."

May be my point of view wasn't described very clear. While it's pretty sure that you can rape a woman without inflict pain to her, it's very unlikely that she will have an orgasm. (the only exception would be the woman/man would not know that she/he is being raped, for example family child abuse or abuse of handicapped persons)
In my opinion it's also very bold to compare women with men in the matter of orgasm.

One word to the posts from kiziroglu. I quite well understand what he means and from his site of view he's alright. "Painless Rape: A Moral Dilemma", I mean with this title you must have expected that there would be some ... contrary meanings. You should tell us exactly what do you mean with "moral dilemma"? If you would have been raped and liked it?

[Ramiel]

turns out you do learn something every day.

[Slayden]

Let me settle this once and for all. I'm growing tired of my own thread.

1. We can throw scientific information and web links at each other all year long, but when it comes down to it, if you tape a vibrator to a woman's clit, she WILL orgasm involuntarily, even if she doesn't want to (I've seen, first hand, women hold back during regular sex but can't). Whether it is through a complex system of nerves throughout the body or the spine is entirely irrelevant.

2. The reason I put "Moral Dilemma" in the title of this thread is because of the conflicting inner morals on what to call this, since we don't have a word for it. We deal with this in our everyday lives, a subject that can't quite be classified between two categories, but the subjects are so small that we usually just pick one or the other and move on. What's beautiful about this topic is it takes it to the extreme, so you can't just classify the action as one or the other without violating some part of your moral compass.

After reading my first post, most immediately think "But it's still rape." Not so fast. If you draw a parallel between a painless rape and a brutal rape, you'll see that they are entirely different animals. One is painful, the other is not. One causes slight mental scarring, the other causes deep mental scarring. One brings about pleasure, the other doesn't. The only common thread the two share is that it isn't wanted. If the two are so different, what do you call it?

In a technical sense, the action could be classified as "rape", but that word just doesn't fit right. You could try to calling it "sexual harassment," which tends to be closer, but that word doesn't seem strong enough. The connotations associated with each of the words doesn't accurately describe the action, yet these are the words we are left with. "Rape. Harassment. Rape. Harassment." Our own sense of morality takes these words and creates an endless "loop" on how it feels and what to call it.

Usually, a moral dilemma requires choice between two actions that cause two moral principles to conflict, requiring one to choose the lesser of two evils (i.e. saving two lives at the expense of one), but a good moral dilemma obscures exactly which choice is the lesser of the two evils. My scenario, however, relies on the idea and semantics to emulate the same feeling, without have to actually DO anything. We all know that a painless rape should not be performed, but it wasn't my goal to point out the obvious. The hangup occurs when you try to label it, but your morals can't settle on one. You want to take it to the extreme and say "Rape! Bad! KILL!", and I agree, but this circumstance is a wrench in the system.

I like to make people stop and think. Many of the replies in this thread are characterized by hesitation and even some sense of confusion, showing that they are thinking about this quite deeply. Thus, I have accomplished my goal.

If you're a philosopher/English-buff, you have to admit this some good stuff as a brain teaser.

[Junior666]

painless rape should not be performed

But it's better than a normal rape right? o.o